Are You the Bottleneck? A Hard Look at Leadership and Execution w/Adam Harris

Jordan: My name is Jordan McFadyen. Welcome back to For The Daring Growth Seekers podcast, a podcast designed to help you navigate this cluttered world of marketing in the AI era. And if you are just joining us, please note, this is part two of a conversation that we had with Adam Harris, who’s an EOS implementer from a business called Frank and Fearless. So if you haven’t yet listened to part one, I’d highly recommend pausing this, go back, listen to that episode first, because in it we discuss some of the common challenges that business visionaries face and the critical importance of gaining clarity, which really does set the foundation for what we’re about to dive into in today’s episode.

Jordan: So for those of you who are caught up and have listened to part one, let’s jump right back into the conversation with Adam, as we shift the focus from the ideas to the actual execution, and we explore the role of what the EOS system calls the integrator. We’re going to answer some of these questions, like: what does accountability really mean in business? And is it a word that makes your team nervous? Or is it really just the foundation of all of your company culture? So on this half of the conversation with Adam, we’re going to explore how to build a culture of ownership, have those necessary but uncomfortable conversations, and turn your vision into a reality. Hope you enjoy part two of our conversation with Adam Harris on For The Daring Growth Seekers podcast.

Jordan: Okay, so then moving on to the integrator. The word accountability in today’s society gets thrown around a fair bit, doesn’t it?

Adam: To a degree. So again, I think there’s a cultural piece on this, right? My observation is that some people are really scared by accountability. Let me put it another way. If somebody isn’t doing what they’re supposed to be doing within an organisation, and that clarity has been clear, and those accountabilities in place, they’re not doing what they’re supposed to be doing. In theory, they’re stealing from the business. Okay, so that’s kind of a hard push-out. But then is it getting curious about why it’s happening, or what we’re trying to achieve here?

Jacqueline: Is there other factors?

Adam: Absolutely. So when we then move into this aspect of personal accountability, so not blaming other people and going, okay, I’m accountable, I’m responsible for that, I haven’t done what I need to do, we start changing the culture within the organisation, because I can come to you as a team and go, hey, guys, I need help. I know I’m accountable for this, but I’m not actually sure what I need to do.

Jacqueline: So it’s about creating that safe space within your team to be able to come to those meetings and have those discussions. And show up and be a team member, that even though you’re taking ownership of this task, it’s not just for you to get across the line.

Adam: So we talk about this aspect, and you guys have heard me say this many, many times, that if more than one person is accountable…

Jordan: It doesn’t get done. We’ve been there.

Adam: Absolutely. Then nobody’s accountable. So again, having that clarity and going, who’s owning it? It’s not us. It’s either me with support of you, or vice versa. So when we get into that space, we’re then able to move forward. I want to loop back, though, to I think what your question was, with regards to the integrator’s role. If you think about the visionary, always, more often than not, wants to put their foot on the accelerator and just propel forward and run.

Jordan: Not taking any factors into consideration.

Adam: Exactly. Cash flow, resources, people, clients, prospects. The integrator, more often than not, will have their foot hovering on the brake, and know the point in time to push on the brake and say no. So you’ve kind of got this dance. And what’s been great for me to observe with you two is that, to expect that to work straight away, it’s kind of like anything. It’s hard. It’s learning.

Adam: And that’s why when we get together every 90 days, we’re recalibrating. It’s like, what’s working, what’s not working? What did we do that we shouldn’t have done? What do we need to be doing differently? Think about the situations, et cetera. Because when you get it right and you’re getting close, that’s when the rocket fuel happens, because you’ve got somebody that’s over here thinking about all of the great ideas and, more often than not, the big relationships with clients and employees. And then you’ve got the integrator over here who is running and owning the business on a day-to-day basis, making sure that things are being done. The two skills could not be further apart. There’s very, very few people that can sit in both seats. So when you get that dynamic working, that’s when you get rocket fuel.

Jordan: And potentially, to a certain point, you can sit in both seats as well in an organisation, I guess. Because if I think about when we were a very small business in those early days, you kind of have to be scrappy in that respect. But I guess if it comes down to that growth ceiling, and that ceiling of how much you can actually sustain in your own head to continue to grow purposefully as well.

Adam: I often share with people the aspect of, and your words were exact there, hitting the ceiling. A business will hit the ceiling at multiple different times on the journey. But it’s having the tools and the techniques, individually and collectively as a team, to go in: A, can we recognise and observe that these things are happening? And then B, how now do we then move forward? And the accountability chart is exactly one. The structure of the business now, compared to where it was when you first started, is different. And then if you think about where it’s potentially going to be in another couple of years, it’s going to be different again.

Adam: Nothing is sacred with regards to the individual. We look at structure first, people second. So when we make sure that we’re doing what’s the best thing for the business, we’re taking often the personal, individuals and also ego out of it, and going, what do we need to do as a business? What’s the best thing? And those conversations, absolutely, we’ve had them. But what that allows you to do is it allows you to move through the clutter, to give you clarity.

Jordan: One thing that stood out to me over that as well was that, especially in our situation here with you and I running this business, and how we’re learning those different skills, is that it takes a shitload of time too. And I think that’s probably the hardest thing that I’ve had to grapple with, is that there’s no quick wins. There’s patience, learning, and just figuring out how to do better and work better and work together better and communicate and all those things, eh?

Adam: Well, for me, when you have a framework of how to work as a business, and everybody’s bought into that way of working, then you’ve solved a lot of the challenges that you’re going to have within a business, because it’s: this is the way we do things here. So what’s happening with you guys, on the way you’re at with the journey, is that we’re building those reps. We’re getting to the stage of knowing and understanding all of the differing tools, so that when you guys don’t need me anymore, it’s because you know and understand all of those tools yourself, that you’re then teaching all of the people that then come into the business.

Adam: It’s like, this is how we do things. So the uncertainty, the lack of clarity that any of the individuals have, dissipates, because we know and understand: this is how we work. This is who we are. This is where we’re heading. This is why we’re heading that way. Oh, okay, cool. I get it.

Jacqueline: We’re all on the same bus.

Jordan: Going back to that growth ceiling as well, about when to acknowledge that you have kind of hit that growth ceiling: is there a common blind spot that you see that leaders have about their own role in that growth ceiling, that they potentially don’t know that they’re actually the problem itself? So is it usually the visionary, or the integrator, that has got a particular problem, that it’s a blind spot and they have no idea that they’re actually causing more harm than good?

Adam: So self-awareness is a big key, but actually creating the space that the team are able to call things out, that’s when things really become… What we do is we’re creating a culture where it’s okay to turn around and say, hey, Jordan, you might be the leader of this business, you might be the visionary, but I need to tell you, this is what I’m seeing. And you go, oh, I didn’t know I was doing that.

Adam: Now, that kind of almost goes against what we’ve been taught, in the fact that, more often than not, most organisations are quite hierarchical, and especially from a shareholder perspective. But the evolution of a team, especially the leadership team, is when the leadership team are able to turn around to each other and feel comfortable in having the uncomfortable conversations. And we talk about the elephant in the room. Often people know and understand where the issues or the challenges or the opportunities are, specifically with individuals, to your point, but they don’t feel comfortable enough.

Adam: There’s a level of fear in the fact: if I call you out, then if you don’t like it, you can get rid of me. So if I don’t feel safe, then I’m not going to have that difficult conversation with you. So when that changes, and again, having an external facilitator manage the process, I can have a look and go, just a slight look, or even just…

Jordan: Sometimes it’s a clearer set of eyes that aren’t in it.

Adam: Absolutely. Or sometimes it’s a tap on the shoulder, or it’s like, hey, Jax, I’m wondering what you’re thinking.

Jacqueline: Yeah, just asking those questions to see if that’s going to be backed up, or what is the clarity or the question from that person’s perspective.

Adam: Yeah, it gives them the permission for things to bubble up. And that’s important: we need to be having those conversations. If we’re not having those conversations, the business is stagnating, because they’re going to come up at some point. Yesterday, on a call with an EOS client, somebody on the leadership team handed the notice in two days ago, and it’s kind of a case of right person, right seat. The chances were that this was going to happen at some point. They’ve seen the writing on the wall, they’ve seen the aspect that they’re going to be held to account. And they’re out.

Adam: It’s like, cool, it’s self-selecting. We don’t want people… going back to your point, Jax, we want to make sure that we’ve got the right people on the bus, but make sure that they’re sitting in the right seats. Because when we get that, we’re all going in the same direction, and we’re all in the waka and we’re all rowing in the same direction. And the culture, I mean, the culture would be great.

Jordan: Absolutely. Because there’s culture that is great, and then there’s culture that looks good on paper, perhaps, and is not that great. What is good culture in your eyes?

Adam: Ooh. It’s an open-ended, loaded question. Well, let me flip it back to you. What’s a good culture for you?

Jordan: I think the…

Adam: Think or know?

Jordan: Oh, this is good. We’re going back to one of our sessions here. We see these podcasts as like our personal therapy sessions, but now we’re starting to get caught out on this as well. I know that it’s, and I’ve learned that it is, around having a decent structure. I think when you first think of culture, especially as a small business owner, you think, oh, I could have a foosball table, and I could have a party, and we could do free drinks every Friday night. And you think that’s going to be the culture issue. But I think from what I’ve learned, the culture is more around the everyday, the structure, like you say, the clarity around roles, responsibilities, what we’re all doing, and that everyone can feel a part of success and growth and achievement, you know? Is that right?

Adam: It’s your answer. I can’t tell you whether that’s right or not.

Jordan: Who’s the host of this podcast? I don’t know. We’re getting put under the pump. Your thoughts, Jax?

Jacqueline: I think it’s being able to have those tricky conversations, but also being able to have respect for each other as well, because you’re all wanting to go in the same direction. You’re wanting to get those rewards. I mean, there’s a time and a place for the great Christmas party and all of that as well. But it’s being able to communicate on a day-to-day, and know it’s true and authentic.

Adam: So I will answer the question. So there’s a couple of things for me. I think how you do one thing is how you do everything. So irrespective as to, like, I’m looking over here and I can see your core values: passionately dedicated, inspiringly curious, daring growth seekers. So it’s all well and good having the words on the wall or the website, but it’s how are we doing things? So if that’s how we’re doing things on a day-to-day basis, and also how we’re doing things when people are not looking, that’s the culture. And sometimes it’s aspirational, and we need to work towards that, in the fact that you, as the leaders and the owners of the business, needs to instil: this is the expectation, this is how we’re going to work, this is how we’re going to do things around here.

Adam: I’m sure you guys know as well, you walk into a location, you can feel the energy, you can feel the culture. And it’s kind of a case of, A, recognising and owning that, and then going, how intentional do we want to be about this? And it’s kind of a case of, when we’re not doing that, how are we calling it out? Because it’s really easy to go, this is where we’re heading, this is what we want to do. But again, it’s having those tough conversations and going, hey, I’m observing that you are doing, or not doing, this. One of the things that I love to see, I love to see them on the wall.

Adam: But let’s take daring growth seekers. My interpretation of that might be different to yours. So let’s say we’ve got our pictures on the wall, and my individual definition is on there. And then you guys identify that I’ve either lived that value or I haven’t lived that value. It’s coming up to me and going, hey, Adam, can we just go over to the values wall? I just want to point out, there was this situation that I observed yesterday. Just tell me what your definition of that value is. Do you believe you lived or didn’t live that value? Now, at that moment, you don’t need to say anything else to me.

Jacqueline: Because they’ve realised it themselves already.

Adam: Absolutely. So when we’re having those conversations, the values and the culture is intentional. That’s when the magic really starts to happen.

Jordan: Nice. Interesting. Business is hard, yeah?

Adam: Right. Business. I often say if it was easy, then everybody would be doing it. And having worked with, God, over 400 CEOs over the last 15 years, I think one of the big realisations for a lot of CEOs, especially entrepreneurial ones, is: why is the team, or why are the individuals, not doing it? It’s like, here’s the thing, Dave, John, Mary, Jane, whoever it is: if they were thinking and feeling like you, they wouldn’t be here, they’d be doing it for themselves. So I think there’s a realisation and an understanding that, as a visionary and as the entrepreneurs within the business, your role is to see the things that other people can’t, and then build a team and build a culture that allows you to develop and allow things to grow.

Adam: And this is why, when you look at, what’s the purpose of why you exist as a business? If it’s just for monetary returns…

Jordan: Transactional.

Adam: Absolutely. If you’ve got a purpose, a cause or a passion, and you’re doing something over and above, it means that, in my case, back in the day, when we got ram-raided for the fourth time in three weeks, and I’m sitting there at three o’clock in the morning waiting for those buggers…

Jacqueline: That’s a nice way of putting it.

Adam: …to come back. I’ve got a baseball, and the adrenaline. Absolutely, it’s part of the journey. Navigating the journey is really, really important. And having worked with a number of individuals that have done really, really well and sold out, a lot of them are lost. Suicide in entrepreneurs that have sold their businesses within 12 months is incredibly high, because they’ve known no different for such…

Jordan: They’ve got those monetary rewards, but then what does money mean?

Adam: Exactly. So taking that step back and really understanding why are you individually or collectively doing something is really, really an important piece.

Jacqueline: So do you see size? Obviously, you’ve worked with lots of different companies, small businesses, Taranaki, probably more so here than Melbourne, larger companies. Are they more agile and able to move more quickly? Or is it the other way around, a bigger team able to move more quickly, because I’ve got more implementers, more people on the same bus?

Adam: I think you need to have the right mindset to start with. So irrespective of location, you can be a really small business, which means, these days, especially with AI and all of the opportunities that are out there, that the options are there to be quick, agile, change as quickly as you want. So the circumstances and the environment allows for that to happen. But if you don’t have the mindset…

Jacqueline: Then you’re stuck. Just on repeat.

Adam: So I think it also… There’s a kind of phrase, which is: you’re plus or minus 10% of the five people that you spend the most amount of time with.

Jordan: Plus or minus 10%. Okay.

Adam: So that may work, that’s kind of knowledge, experience, wealth, et cetera. So it’s kind of a case of: who’s challenging your assumptions? Who are you hanging out with, which is making you think and feel differently?

Jacqueline: The vibe.

Adam: Again, if you can’t get it, it’s your responsibility.

Jacqueline: To create it.

Jordan: I like it. Capability. Mindset. There’s a lot to unpack, hey, when you think of it like that. Just to finish up, if there’s one thing that businesses could do right now, that you’re seeing the most successful businesses that are… If there’s one little thing that they’ve been doing that kind of flicks the switch on their growth and stuff like that, what do you reckon that one thing is? If there’s a business owner or an entrepreneur listening to this, is there one thing that they should just go away thinking, yep, this is one thing I can think about or implement slightly differently?

Adam: Yeah. So this isn’t new, it’s old. If you think about the greatest sportspeople, they have coaches. Not only do they have one coach, but they have a coach for multiple different things. So Serena Williams, she’ll have a health and nutrition coach. She had a fitness coach. She had somebody that was helping her specifically with her serve. So you kind of mounted up experts within really specific narrow areas, which is going to… All of those marginal gains. Sir Clive Woodward in English rugby talked about the 1%. How, where and what can you do to increase those 1% little areas, to ensure that you’re able to move forward?

Adam: So the biggest thing I would be saying is: who is challenging your assumptions, right? Because if you’re just doing things in a natural progression, our bodies and our minds will take the path of least resistance. Fundamentally, as humans, unless you’re in the top…

Jordan: You want to get there the quickest, right?

Adam: Absolutely. Unless you’re in the top 0.1%, most people will do things that are easy and comfortable. So who’s pushing and challenging you to be uncomfortable, physically and mentally? Because that’s where you’re going to be able to think and do things differently. So my advice would be: go and find somebody. There’s plenty. There’s coaches and mentors out there. And more often than not, if you see somebody that you admire and you trust, the chances are, if you ask them, hey, can you help mentor me? You need to take ownership of that relationship. And there is a big difference between a mentor and a coach. And there’s a big difference when you’re in a financial relationship and when you’re not. But go and get somebody that is going to challenge your thinking.

Jordan: Great. And thank you for being that person to make us feel physically and mentally uncomfortable. Because, like you say, it can be challenging, and elephant in the room, tough conversations. It all kind of boils down. And you can see the reason why you need to have that support system and those type of conversations too.

Jacqueline: Definitely. And not relying on… ChatGPT is going to tell you you’re wonderful every time you talk to it. So not relying on things like that.

Adam: Yeah, and that’s my goal. My goal is holding the space, and seeing the things that are not being said. I’ve got 20-plus years of lived experience of sitting not only in your shoes, but then also supporting and challenging other people. For me personally, I kind of work on this basis that if I feel uncomfortable, I’m playing in exactly the right space.

Jordan: Because you’re pushing.

Adam: Absolutely. That’s the goal that I’m bringing. And the fact that I know that other people will see it, but they’re not realising it, or they’re not stretching to get that growth personally. They’re not the daring growth seeker that I am, to go, hey, look, I might not ever work with this client again, but I have a duty of care in this moment that I need to either say or bring the bubbles up, to go, hey, guys, look, might just be me, but this is what I’m observing. What do you guys think? Almost pull the pin on the grenade and let it go.

Jordan: I like that, not being too comfortable.

Adam: Yeah, and you know that feeling too, eh? Yeah, you do. But the thing is that when you have that uncomfortableness, you then push through it. And then it’s never as bad as you thought it was going to be.

Jordan: I think the mind always plays the stories in your head beforehand to be a lot worse than what it is, right? And entrepreneurship is always a rollercoaster, right? You’ve got your highs, you’ve got your lows, and then you’ve got the upside-down loop that you roll through.

Adam: It’s part of the journey. And whatever comes up, you’ll find a way of working through, or not.

Jordan: I love it. Thank you so much for your time.

Adam: Thank you.

Jordan: Very insightful. If people want to reach out or connect with you, what’s the best way for them to do that?

Adam: I’m sure it’ll be in the show notes, but LinkedIn, you can always find me on there, or frankandfearless.com. I’m around. You’ll find me if you want to find me.

Jordan: Well, thank you again so much. It was great to chat, and great to have you join us.

Adam: Cheers.