The Unfiltered Truth About Running a Family Marketing Business

Jordan: So we’re having a slightly different episode of the Daring Growth Seekers podcast today. School holidays, which always makes things a little bit tricky for timing and sitting down to record episodes. But one thing Jacqueline managed to do is get interviewed by a local business show called The Business Hour on The Most FM. So it’s a slightly different episode today. We’re going to be playing you that interview, where she was interviewed by Tom Schurr, who also owns a local business in Taranaki called Escape Coffee. They chat around all things business, and especially running Done By Nine, and kind of a look behind the scenes of how we are running this business.

Jordan: And also the different perspectives of how business is changing thanks to AI, and all those type of things as well. So for a bit of an insight into the business, and a bit of an insight into what Jacqueline does day in, day out, this is what this episode is all about. And we’ll be back with our regular off-mic episodes again next week.

Tom: This morning, I have Jacqueline from Done By Nine. It’s a digital marketing strategy agency.

Jacqueline: Yeah, so we’re a digital marketing company. Our main goal is to help businesses grow, focusing on that marketing strategy piece, to help keep your marketing ahead of the AI changes, because AI is sort of changing the way people shop, and how people search, and how people find your businesses out there today.

Tom: As a small business owner, it’s one that’s so funny. And a lot of us, we’re operationally good, but have no idea on the marketing and sales function in our business. But just going back to the words you said, staying ahead of the game, like, wow, how do you do that? Wow. It seems to be changing so quickly.

Jacqueline: It’s being adaptive, but then I think it’s also being consistent, and giving things a go as well. There’s no golden nugget. There’s no answer that I can give you that you’re going to go viral tomorrow and this is going to work for you. It’s actually putting that strategy behind, and doing that groundwork.

Tom: Yeah, because you see some, I don’t know whether you call them accounts or businesses, just explode. They get that unicorn, but otherwise it is. There is just the work, isn’t there, in anything you do?

Jacqueline: Yeah, it’s definitely the work. It’s finding out who your core clients are, and doing that groundwork and targeting them. I mean, the unicorn is very, very rare to go.

Tom: I guess the cool thing about your business is the tools that you’re learning, you’re applying for your own business, and then you’re sharing that? Is that the sort of approach?

Jacqueline: Yeah, so essentially that’s what my husband, obviously my husband Jordan, is more client-facing, the team that do the work ahead, but they are definitely running ourselves through these processes as well.

Tom: Oh, there’s so many things we’re already bringing up of threads to talk about. So family business, AI, like, there’s some big topics here. But maybe for everyone out there, and myself included, tell me about when and why the business started.

Jacqueline: Yeah, so lockdown. Lockdown, I think, was our key turning point. It is definitely, obviously, a big milestone for us as a family. My husband was in the travel industry, so it hit them pretty hard and fast. It’s like they were feeling that back in December, January, when you and I were probably just living our normal day-to-day lives. That was a chance where he decided, he’d been in this industry for seven to eight years, now was the time to put some energy and money into his passion, and to do something about it.

Jacqueline: I had a salon with a friend, and so we were able to keep that going while we survived through lockdown. Obviously, we had mandates and shutdowns, but we navigated that road while we were able to put in the time of growing Done By Nine and starting it to what it is now.

Tom: So sort of bootstrapped business.

Jacqueline: Bootstrapped business from the kitchen table. To be honest, it was scrappy. It was messy. We had three kids in the mix. One was due May, and we had cardboard boxes set up, video cameras balancing on top, kids outside while we were trying to get this content started and recorded.

Tom: God, I can just, I can imagine the carnage. I still remember when I had my accounting business at the time, in lockdown, and the kids staring in through the window, just not understanding why I spent a day staring at a computer screen and talking on a phone. And they’re like, is that all you do all day? Like, do you go outside and play? So it was really interesting. But yeah, fascinating to see the opportunity of that time.

Jacqueline: It was definitely an opportunity at a time, I think. I mean, if you look back at lockdown, and then what we’re facing today, and AI and those challenges, it was sort of almost another milestone in challenges that we were facing in lockdown, right? And there were some businesses that weren’t even online that were coming to us and going, okay, so we’re not online. Can you help us? What do we do?

Tom: Yeah. Everyone’s been forced to look at their businesses, and some have gone, oh, it’s just too hard. Let’s just hope. And others are starting to evolve, whether it’s product mix or sales channels, all those sort of things.

Jacqueline: It’s just the other pillars, right, that keep the businesses turning and functioning.

Tom: Yeah. And so this decision to start this business together, I’m just looking at it and going, was that something that had been bubbling away? You could see that was going to happen at some stage, or was it just a needs must sort of thing?

Jacqueline: No, it had definitely been bubbling away. We had that excitement, or that dare, to sort of jump and to do something, but it was like, what was that going to be? Was that going to be together, or how was it going to be in our jobs that we had? Because we loved those jobs. We were going to be able to keep them both running, or how much can we lean into it, or how much is it going to stretch us? It’s that balance.

Tom: And then, so for you, your role, were you, and we’ll get into some of the technically EOS stuff, which Adam would just be frothing over.

Jacqueline: Oh, and he’s not even here, right?

Tom: I know, but that’s probably a blessing, because then we can talk about it more freely, without feeling advertorial for him. But, and with your salon before that, I’m just wondering, were you doing that sort of integration, sort of management style role within that? Just what led you to go, yeah, I’ve got the skills now to come in as a partner and thrust this business forward too?

Jacqueline: I think it’s always growing, obviously growing and learning. We’ve had Adam and EOS come in and help sort of shape and reframe some of those operations. But definitely in the salon, that definitely grew for me as part of my role, because I’m not a hairdresser, right? So I was purely operations and our marketing, and obviously our make-ups and weddings. So it wasn’t all overarching on me being on the shop floor, but obviously also it was a business that we had to be present in as well.

Jacqueline: And we also have this passion that we wanted to travel with our kids. And so there came a time and a shift where that business had been going for seven years, and me and my business partner were kind of at the end of that journey together. And we had an opportunity of somebody from within the salon that wanted to purchase the business. So it kind of just made sense in terms of the timing. We had navigated out of lockdown for two or three years, and then Done By Nine had grown, it was thriving. We had found a location, we had opened up shop a year in. And so it sort of just made sense to make the jump and go all in.

Tom: Yeah, it’s funny. I sort of look at these, like businesses, almost as in like seasons of life, or just the travel.

Jacqueline: Just the flow away.

Tom: Yeah. And so it’s like, in some, their life cycles are quicker than others. But it sounds like the salon, you reached maturity there. But it sounds like Done By Nine, it’s like opening up a shop. It’s like the kids moved out of house. It’s ready to like really go for it. It’s like spades.

Jacqueline: Yeah. So it’s like ready to go for it. And then it was that twist and pull, the stretch of, oh, but I need to be here for the salon. And then he’s like, oh, but I need to do this for work. And it’s just finding that juggling act as well.

Tom: Was that a scary time at all to go all in, or did it just seem like the absolute clear choice?

Jacqueline: It was a scary time. And it probably, we had some long late-night discussions about that, because then that’s our sole income. So yeah, going all in definitely didn’t just happen overnight.

Tom: Yeah, it’s sort of like, I’ve been teaching my boys how to play poker at the moment. It’s like, that all in is a big moment.

Jacqueline: It is a big moment, right? It’s do or die almost. It’s finding those learning moments with kids. And when we went travelling, it was like, okay, so how can we get this connection and go all in? So we have this thing that we go to the supermarket and we choose one tub of ice cream, and to get all four people aligned on one tub of ice cream, like, that can be a challenging time at the supermarket, right? Some people must look at us and be like, what is she doing?

Tom: Yeah, I’d be curious to know how you do do that, because, like, we’ve got three kids, you’ve got four.

Jacqueline: Yes.

Tom: So complexity goes up exponentially with each one.

Jacqueline: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then those moments of getting out, getting to the playground and just sitting down, everyone around the one tub of ice cream, just the conversations that spark and joy, from, instead of making it easy, go to the dairy, everyone get their own ice cream and go off in all other directions, trying to bring them together into…

Tom: It’s like a good social study. Children, they teach you probably more than you can teach them.

Jacqueline: It’s a good challenge. Yeah. Worth a try.

Tom: So going travelling with them, I’ve got a few different things bouncing in my head. I’m keen to know when you actually launched into this EOS, or going with the business, needing that external help, you say, with all the late nights. But when was the travel piece with the kids as well?

Jacqueline: So we sold the salon, and then we had this goal that we wanted to do sort of six months overseas with the kids, and sort of just give them that taste for travel and that experience, and sort of take them out of that mainstream school cycle and just explore. So we kind of, well, I think it was about March, good flight sales came out. We looked at them and we’re like, okay, let’s book them, but obviously knowing that we could change them if need be. And then we were like, okay, now we’ll just get the business humming to a certain point where we can roll over.

Jacqueline: At this stage, we weren’t doing EOS, but we had obviously operational systems in place, like ClickUp, and good comms up with our team. And then, yeah, so come Labour Weekend, we got the house sorted, put that on Airbnb, and packed everyone’s life up into a small suitcase, and took the plunge and flew into the States. We drove down the coast, and then we ended up over in Mexico and travelled the coast around Mexico.

Tom: Oh, unreal. That would have been incredible, I’m guessing.

Jacqueline: Incredible. Faced some challenges along the way. But I mean, nothing that’s, you buckle yourself into the rollercoaster, right? And you ride the wave out.

Tom: Yeah, well, it’s interesting. We’re about to go take the kids for about six weeks to travel. So I’m just here to go.

Jacqueline: Challenges.

Tom: Yeah, what sort of challenges? Well, now we’re turning this into a travel and travel parenting podcast.

Jacqueline: Well, no, there were the challenges of, obviously, we still had to work, right? We still had to keep the businesses going. Lucky for us, time zone sort of played into our advantage a wee bit, because we could go out and enjoy the morning, make the most of it, and then one of us could clock in at like three o’clock, mainly Jordan, with the clients, and work until the evening. So that worked as a positive for us, and also the day’s difference, because we kind of got a day just to get stuff done.

Jacqueline: In terms of the kids, it was actually the littler ones that adapted a lot quicker and easier. I think because they were just free play continuously, and that’s their life. It was more the school kids. They’ve had that structure and that routine. So it’s kind of coming to you, like their teacher, like, okay, so what’s happening today? I’m like, well, we’re going to the supermarket. And, what do you mean you don’t know where that is? Well, I don’t know where that is. So we need to go there and we need to find it. And we get to the supermarket and there’s like no meat and there’s no bread. And we’re like, oh, okay. Well, we probably need to go find a bakery or a butchery to get this. We have to go to another place to just do the basics.

Tom: Learning to pivot, yeah, which is interesting, at such a young age, that structure can grow right around you. And then you go, what then, as adults, are we not aware of? It’s probably a good segue back to like how we run our businesses, or even in this marketing space, isn’t it? We just do what we’ve done in these spaces. It kind of gets a bit routine.

Jacqueline: Like, it actually makes you, it’s a good sort of reflecting moment to actually pivot and stop, and perhaps look at our business as well. It was a few key points that led us to EOS. Sometimes it felt like we were having meetings for the sake of having meetings, and some things weren’t coming to light at those meetings. And then they would be like, oh, I’ll catch up with you later. I need to talk about this, when as a team, to all come together and just help with those bottlenecks, and actually get to the core root of the issue or problem.

Tom: So with the business now, and I don’t know if you’ve got any plans for travel, but do you feel like you could go and do that trip as the business stands right now? Like, what stage are you at at the moment within your business?

Jacqueline: Yeah, we’re kind of at a bit of a pivotal point, obviously, with the way AI is moving right now. Obviously that’s not my wheelhouse, that’s my husband’s. So we would definitely like to do that again. But then there’s also the race against the clock of when school years become important to them, and limiting the time that we can go away for. Because it’s a big stretch, right? It’s a 14-hour flight to kind of get to the places that we’re wanting to go, and then to sort of get set up.

Jacqueline: You’d probably be wanting, as a family, to do it for at least minimum of sort of six to eight weeks, to embrace in that community and begin to feel a part. Otherwise there’s that, you go over there and you still kind of live your New Zealand life and routine a wee bit. Whereas when we got into Mexico, we kind of adapted to the ebbs and flows of the way that they lived as well. So, yeah, I don’t know.

Tom: Yeah, you need to sort of understand, too, the new curriculum or that, and go, yeah, how important is it? Because it’s so hard to understand, that’s moving too.

Jacqueline: Yeah, like, it’s shifted from when we were at school, right? Because you could go, oh, third, fourth form, no biggie.

Tom: Yeah, totally. Back in the day.

Jacqueline: Yeah, like, okay, what’s the serious years? Sixth and seventh. But now it’s kind of, oh, is it more fifth, sixth and seventh?

Tom: So, lots to consider there.

Jacqueline: Yeah, lots to navigate.

Tom: So, looping back to the sort of later nights you’re having around the business and that, when did you go, actually, the business is getting to a point, and the issues are maybe getting more complex, where it would be nice to have someone else helping? Like, how did that come about, of getting someone else to help you guys?

Jacqueline: In terms of EOS?

Tom: Yeah.

Jacqueline: I think it was just, perhaps the traction that we were wanting and the goals that we were wanting to achieve would always rely on us, and they were taking longer to get there. So it’s sort of embedding the rest of the team on the journey as well, and taking them along with us, but also providing opportunities for them to be able to grow and feel like they own it as well. Because it’s an easy way for somebody, Jordan, to stand out there as the visionary and just say, okay, well, this is what we’re doing, and we’re going here, here and here. This is what I need you to implement, right? And kind of micromanaging, and that’s not what we want to do.

Tom: It’s a big, well, not a big step, it’s just a, like I see there, I’m looking at my own business here and it’s going, that’s quite a big step for a business to then go from where it is, owner-driven, owner-led. And basically, well, you saw me just before this, running off just because the plumber tooted at me.

Jacqueline: Totally.

Tom: Then drawn back into operationally.

Jacqueline: Yeah, and there’s always that pull, right? We still get that pull.

Tom: Yeah. But how’s that gone with that next level, that next step of stepping beyond and going strategy or vision, but then projects filtering that level down to your team?

Jacqueline: Yeah, so we’re kind of in our first cycle, our first 90 days. So our team have just had some core rocks, and we’re about to wrap that up, kind of August. We put ourselves through the process a couple of times with Adam, and we obviously put a lot of core work into our core values and our niche, and just doing the setup, just because that felt important. We obviously had core values back when we set up the business, but there was like 10 or 12, and when we onboarded a new staff, maybe everyone would be a little bit, like, scratch their heads, hang on, let’s just open this doc and run through it. They didn’t actually stick, and they didn’t actually mean anything.

Jacqueline: So it was sort of establishing those core values that we could live by, we could breathe by, that we could actually get invested with, and running with those, and then helping break down the rocks and the goals that we want the team to focus on, but also giving them full ownership and accountability. Because sometimes we had an accountability issue, is we’d have this goal, but it would be like client work would just always take over. And the actual doing on ourselves would just be like, oh yeah, we’ll get to that next month. Oh yeah, we’ll get to that next quarter. It’s like it’s there and it’s burning away, but it’s just not getting that traction to…

Tom: It’s like the horizon that just keeps extending on you, unless you do have that accountability in a business. So is that part of what, say, Adam’s role is, or is that your role within the business?

Jacqueline: So Adam’s our mentor. That’s part of my role, being to kind of keep everybody accountable and create those measures together. And we do that through our team meetings. We have scorecards, and we catch up a lot, quite a bit, frequently. Whereas I think in old school business, sometimes those catch-ups could, for some staff members, be like on the yearly pay review, or once every six months, or once a month, because it’s kind of seemed good to touch base. Like, are you actually touching base with a staff member and listening to them, or hearing them?

Tom: Kind of crosses over a bit in an HR perspective, doesn’t it, too?

Jacqueline: Yeah, yeah, it does. And it’s going, is this just because it’s meant to happen, or is this because it should be happening, or is the right thing to do at that time?

Tom: Yeah. So you need to be a little bit fluid and dynamic, to not just go, this is what the process is.

Jacqueline: Yes.

Tom: So as the integrator, and I guess EOS, just for anyone that’s not aware, entrepreneur operating system, it’s just a way of running your business. And it’s a beautifully, to me, beautifully simple but comprehensive system. Like, it’s got everything you need, strategically right through to operationally, to sort of run a small to medium size, even a larger business, really well. A couple of key, I guess, definitions or roles within that are, like, the visionary, who sets the vision and is the big ideas person, and then the integrator, which I find would be the hardest role within a business, or the hardest to find someone skilful at it too, to integrate, to take that, I guess, vision and put it operationally into play.

Jacqueline: Yes, there’s a lot of challenges there. And I think that also comes a little bit trickier, because that person is my husband as well.

Tom: Yeah, there’s the extra layer on top of that.

Jacqueline: The extra layer on top of that.

Tom: Because often an integrator needs to hold the visionary accountable, or check their ideas too, because the visionary might throw out 10 ideas.

Jacqueline: Yeah, there’s a lot of wild ideas.

Tom: And say we’re going to roll with all 10 of them, and you’re going to be like, we can’t cope with all 10, we need to do one. And so there’s this natural, like, oh, don’t hold me down, don’t slow me, like, clipping my wings. So tell us about that.

Jacqueline: Oh, that, I think, is a journey. It definitely has some benefits of being a husband and wife team duo, but it definitely also comes with some frustration as well. Like when at 11 o’clock at night he’s like, I’ve got this great idea. And I’m just like, oh mate, like, now? It’s 11 o’clock at night.

Tom: Yeah, just a little tap on the shoulder.

Jacqueline: I’m like, no, no. But there’s that part of it. But then I think, in the positive way, we kind of get each other, and can play to each other’s strengths and weaknesses a wee bit. And we’re obviously in this boat together. So we want to keep sailing. We don’t want to sink.

Tom: Yeah. And I guess communication, like, so much that I’m learning, and that is out there so much, is around communication. So I was just having this chat with someone the other day, and they just said, oh, what’s the hardest thing about running a business? And I just said, well, for me, it was actually, for Escape, it was coming out with the why. Like, why us? Why are we unique or different? Like, honestly.

Jacqueline: Yeah, I totally understand that.

Tom: Because I was like, anyone else could roast the coffee and that. But it took me a while to figure out, well, no, we’re local. And that creates this community and this connection, this positive spiral upwards for everyone that’s involved in it. And yeah, we’re organic, and there’s a lot of downstream benefits and upstream benefits. But that took me ages. And it’s like, oh, that’s really weird. Most people say people. And I was like, oh, no, people were… I don’t find people the challenge. I find communication the challenge.

Jacqueline: I think communication is key, right? And it’s also the interactions that you have with different people. Sometimes people are like, oh my gosh, your morning coffee on Friday, that took you like an hour and a half. But it’s because it’s the people that I’ve run into, the conversations that I’ve had. And they sometimes spark other ideas. You see them and they’ll be like, oh, I saw you guys did this and this. And that might be something that you’re like, oh, I didn’t think that was working. But you kind of lean into it a bit more and ask them a few more questions, and you’re actually like, oh, that’s the direction I need to be going, right?

Tom: Yeah. And that’s interesting, too, because it’s that on-the-ground and human interaction that you can’t necessarily get from the online world, can you?

Jacqueline: No, because it can be like hidden behind screens, as you were saying, lockdown times, and the kids just seeing you at a screen all day long. It can very much get driven that way, and just turning into implementation, and putting content out there. But you’ve got to have that connection. And I think there are great businesses in Taranaki doing that. There’s a whole lot of a community buzz on certain things, like run clubs and dinners and all of that, which is just like another layer that’s exciting to see. Because kind of I felt that we lost that a bit after lockdown. It was hard to get that connection.

Tom: Yeah. A lot of those cords had been cut.

Jacqueline: Yeah, totally. But seeing that come back, especially as we’re seeing some things go or leave, or we’re seeing what’s filling that space is a deeper level of connection.

Tom: We’ve sort of, we’re getting away a little artificially.

Jacqueline: Yeah, it’s kind of gone full circle, right? Like you hit that artificial, those reels that need to be polished and like top notch, and then it’s that authenticness is coming through, you know?

Tom: I thought we’d now jump into the changing, I guess, marketing world. In between, when we were just off here, you were just saying, you’re comparing this almost to the COVID times, in terms of step change. So tell me a bit more.

Jacqueline: Yeah, I think overall, obviously this is not my wheelhouse, I’m operations back at Done By Nine, but definitely the team. And there’s a lot of talking in our team meetings about the shift, and the shift about AI coming in, and how you can use that within your business. But what tools can you apply to use it as either something to bounce ideas off, or help with the sort of background checking, but also needing to put your own twist on there as a brand as well.

Tom: Yeah. And so I’ve seen quite a bit of content, especially Jordan, like, being the arrowhead of starting to talk about this. Is it more to raise awareness, or it’s like you’re hearing what your customers are telling you, and then I guess just that drum, everyone’s starting to beat that drum?

Jacqueline: I think everyone’s starting to beat that drum, but obviously he’s well informed from his travels overseas, obviously our clients over there. Sometimes I feel New Zealand can be a little bit on the end scale of it hitting, so you can watch from abroad and see those changes on how people are adapting. But I think people are searching for businesses differently. It’s not your standard Google search. They’re using ChatGPT to create supermarket shopping lists for the entire week, for the dinner.

Tom: Oh, the uses. And I must admit, I’m a little bit of a laggard here. I’ve always prided myself on playing a low tech or no tech game, like, one of the skills that are valuable without technology. But I’m like, no, no, that’s just an excuse to cop out. And just seeing what my mates and other people are using it for now, I’m like, wow, I’ve got to play catch-up here, because you can use it for so many things. And it’s great for learning, like how to figure out how to do things. But also it changes the way people shop. They compare things on there, and they’re not having to do the groundwork. They’re not having to go into three different stores.

Jacqueline: So you could be doing that, acting like the consumer, testing your own business. But then how’s your business going to show up when people are searching for that product? It’s adapting your business to be present on those platforms as well.

Tom: Yeah. And so that’s where you jump in and you really help a customer. And before going, how do you do that? It’s like, are there certain industries or areas that you’re finding are getting disrupted first, like in this first wave?

Jacqueline: Probably a good question for my husband, probably got better scope over that. But I think generally it’s happening across the board, right? I think if you ask people what are they opening now to search with, it’s probably not going to be Google.

Tom: Isn’t that crazy?

Jacqueline: It’s probably not, you know? It’s ChatGPT or, what are the other ones people using? Are kids using this in school, you know?

Tom: So that is a step change, isn’t it?

Jacqueline: Yeah. There’s a generational change. There’s young people out…

Tom: Super generational change.

Jacqueline: There’s young people out there that are using this tool to start businesses themselves, you know? The entrepreneurship journey isn’t like a small 5% or 10% of people now. I think that market is getting wider. People are daring and willing to give things a go.

Tom: Which is quite exciting, because I think if my kids, if they want to be little hustlers, they could create a little business. Almost the click of the fingers now, what used to cost us, well, a whole lot of time, but quite a lot of money.

Jacqueline: Time, resource, money. You either had to have another job to fund that, right, to start with, or parent support, to take that plunge.

Tom: An interesting thought I had in my head, though, too, was, like, with your business, are you at risk of AI, teaching about AI?

Jacqueline: Yeah. No, that’s a good question. Totally. No, it has definitely crossed our minds, and there’s obviously conversations about that. But you still need that strategic support, right? You still need to go, what channel, and what ebbs and flows do you need to go? So it’s sort of, how can we use these tools to get you to get the best out of your marketing? So what can we show you? You can use this and this to do and to implement with.

Jacqueline: And also creating a community space where you can come into our Daring Growth Seekers community, and it’s filled with business people, like-minded businesses, and you can chuck your idea out into the community and get some bounce back, and get some feedback about what people are, what’s hitting them this week, what’s their biggest challenge? Because sometimes it’s having those conversations. ChatGPT can also have its own mind, and can take you down a very long rabbit hole if you’re not aware and can’t pull yourself back out of it. Because ultimately that’s been programmed, and there’s a set of things that will lead it a certain way. It’s not completely…

Tom: It’s not 100% the answer, right?

Jacqueline: No. So it’s kind of that critical thinking. I think people still need to be aware, to have that critical thinking behind what they’re putting in there, and what they’re wanting to use it for.

Tom: So within your own business, then, how are you using AI, and how is it changing your business?

Jacqueline: How is it changing our business is probably how we use the tools for our clients in there. So how that’s set up, but also how we’re informing our clients in terms of workshops, and how can their businesses and marketing, how can they be found? How can they show up to the clients that are trying? Because essentially they’re wanting to put themselves out there. So how is the client going to find you?

Tom: And then there’s that element of, when you say, how is the client willing to put themselves out there? You’ve struck something for me too, because it’s like, yes, there is the AI that can help, but it’s like, ultimately you’ve got to have the human element, or the element of storytelling.

Jacqueline: Yes, the element of storytelling, the authenticity, the, you know.

Tom: And that can’t be generated, like, well, you know, possibly. It can be, but it won’t come across naturally, will it?

Jacqueline: It won’t come across genuine. It will come across with that filter: this was created by ChatGPT.

Tom: Yeah. Do you do anything there with individuals too, like helping them with telling their story, or putting themselves out there a bit?

Jacqueline: Definitely. That’s definitely for our strategic team within the business. So we’ll do a deep dive session, and we’ll spend time with you for a solid, you know, hour or so. So we have these core questions that we sort of break down, and we get to, what is your why? What are we doing here? And then also break down our goals. What are our goals we’re going to achieve? And so from here we create this Idea Incubator. And from that Idea Incubator, we’ve developed a strategy that, obviously, we have a monthly blend, you know.

Jacqueline: So we’ve got our core components: this is what we’re focusing on this month, this is what we’re going to implement. And then at the end of the month we’re going to round up and see what our measures are and what our results are. So we’re not a company that you’re going to hear from us at the start of the month and the end of the month, which some agencies do. It’s just wash, rinse, repeat. We’re there on the journey with them. We’re going to be in your inbox, or however you want to be contacted, throughout the month, because we want to achieve these goals with you, because that’s what makes everyone in our office tick, you know.

Tom: Yeah. And then, well, knowing the EOS process, right, and like the goals of what is there, do the work you love with those you love, when you want to, if you get the key points. But it’s those key elements of the business owner to then go, is that in line with what the business can deliver? How well do you find business owners are at, I guess, saying what that is, or dragging that out of them, to then go, well, what do you want from the business, and why does the business exist? So where’s your competitive advantage, I guess, that’s trying to say. Does that take time?

Jacqueline: It definitely does take time, and I think it can change as well. So it’s something that we now revisit every year, because when we started, what we started with is very different to what it is today. And our 10-year hairy audacious goal is to empower 20,000 businesses in terms of marketing. So that’s a big 10-year goal, but we’re trying to break that down and do that each year, by year, to get there.

Tom: And then how do you measure that, and where are you at at the moment? Because you’ve helped quite a lot of businesses already. I was looking at you.

Jacqueline: Yeah, we’ve helped a lot of businesses already. So that yearly one, we measured that at the end of the financial year, and we kind of touched base around it on Christmas, because we like to give ourselves a little count over Christmas, just to touch base and see how we’re tracking.

Tom: And is there breadth versus depth? Is that like a thing, in your industry, or for the work you do? In terms of like going, I guess you could go as deep as you want with a client, but to get 10,000, is that…

Jacqueline: Yeah, it’s definitely, obviously we have different levels of client, right? So we have our high-level clients, which obviously spend more money, but then obviously we’re maybe implementing more. And then we have more of our workshop clients. So they may be a smaller business, but we’re kind of empowering them with the tools and knowledge to put themselves through the process, and kind of teach them that way. So we’ve got those levels for the scope that is there.

Tom: Yeah. And then…

Jacqueline: But I guess it’s trying to be scalable as well within that space. We do have a bit of a strong market in Australia as well, to sort of help support and navigate that. But then it’s also that scale and growth as well.

Tom: So with Australia too, I just go back to the family element of the business. Does that mean, still, in this day and age, time on the road? Physical events?

Jacqueline: It does. Unfortunately it means time on the road. It’s just part of the juggling, actually, because, as you say, it’s about connection, right? So you need to show up, you need to turn up, you need to be present with them as well. So it does create a little bit of travel there.

Tom: The juggling act of single parenting during those weeks. It’d be interesting. But at least it’s Australia, not UK or somewhere like that.

Jacqueline: Yes. Totally. Not UK.

Tom: So with the business, then, what are the big, big focus points at the moment for you guys?

Jacqueline: I think the big focus points are sort of growing our Daring Growth Seekers community, just to be able to have like-minded businesses in there who are passionate about marketing, to give them that space to get educated, be able to ask those questions, and create workshops from there. But also then implementing the marketing strategies for those core clients that want that growth, because there’s nothing better than celebrating the wins that they get along the way as well.

Tom: Because as a trend, do you think that the daring client, that’s creative or excited about marketing, is that growing? Or is that, through this time, shrinking, as people go, I just can’t keep up? Like, have you seen any trends around that?

Jacqueline: It’s a tricky one to kind of comment right now, maybe just because there’s so much changing at the moment. But I definitely think there has been a wake-up call. There’s kind of like lockdown, of, okay, we need to act, and we need to put some steps in place and get some marketing strategies under our belt, or otherwise we’re going to get left behind and we’re not going to get found.

Tom: Yeah, and it’s interesting too, just looking at our business, like Escape Coffee, just going in the last, yeah, three to six months really, I’ve just noticed a couple of the big roasteries just, like, accelerating.

Jacqueline: Accelerating, yeah.

Tom: Like they’re just all over you, everywhere.

Jacqueline: Everywhere.

Tom: Every time you open your phone, you’re like, what, again? I can’t get away from these guys. And then, like, as we’re sort of starting to do a bit more, you just go…

Jacqueline: You’re seeing it as well, yeah.

Tom: Are we, is it even, you know, there’s so much noise out there, and just go…

Jacqueline: It’s a noisy place.

Tom: I guess in any business, size matters and helps, but for you guys, from what you’ve seen, is it a size thing in your business? Because often people get into a business because operationally they’re fantastic at what they do, whereas running a business, as you know, there’s so many different departments or elements, and normally sales and marketing are the two that are neglected, just because of the time.

Jacqueline: Yes.

Tom: And so it’s like, is it a size, like a certain size where the business can start to invest, or is it just an attitude, or?

Jacqueline: I think it’s an attitude. It’s an attitude, I mean, and also an implementation issue as well.

Tom: That ugly word.

Jacqueline: Yeah, that ugly word, that implementation. Are they confused? Do they not have that direction? Maybe they know they’ve got to do something, but maybe they don’t know the how, why or when to do it. So they’re looking for that support to do it. So, I mean, we’ve had startup businesses that we’ve helped kick off the ground. So I think it’s just knowing what process you need to get the wheels all turning.

Tom: And then talking about implementation, since you are the implementer in your business, what have you found in your business? And I just think back when I had the accounting business, even here at Escape, like, shrinking down the amount of things to just focus on the few. But in terms of being the implementer, what’s really worked, or have you seen in your own business, for getting traction?

Jacqueline: What’s really worked for us is embedding all our systems into one place. Because you can have a lot of tools that do this and this and this, but I think having the one solid ClickUp foundation for us, which we’ve embedded our EOS system into, it took time, it took effort, but just to have it a rock base where everybody’s using the same tool makes it seamless. Because when we had lots of different tools, everyone, it was very easy to go off on their own tangent and go this way, this way, and I’m going to do it this way. So it does help pull everything back, helps keep all our SOPs in one place, all our day-to-day running’s just clear and defined.

Tom: Yep. Yeah, which is my thing. It’s like, often you do wish you could blow things up and start from a greenfield, right?

Jacqueline: Yeah. Sometimes it’s just like, because every tool or thing costs money, right? And then sometimes it just becomes redundant, and we’re like, oh, why are we paying for this? Nobody’s really even using it. Just having that little bit of a clean-up.

Tom: Yeah. Just sit back, look at it, but then, again, you say, to pull up sleeves and make it happen.

Jacqueline: Happen. Yeah. Sometimes it’s hard finding that space. You’ve almost got to step away to have that, pull yourself out, to have that clear overview, to then come back in and say, this isn’t working, so we’re going to be doing this, and then implementing it, and following it through. Because it takes that repetition too, because there’s that resistance of, oh, but I just want to do it the old way. It’s that best-level thinking, to get it in, and then you’ve just got to look at it again and go, is it working smoothly, or do we need to tweak and go again?

Tom: And just thinking about the EOS language, was that like an annual project, like a big project for you to do, or was it just like a quarterly rock?

Jacqueline: So we didn’t implement it with our whole team straight away. We ran it with Jordan and I first, to kind of get a grasp and the feel of it, because there’s a lot in terms of the language and the process, and we wanted to be sure before we rolled out. Because we were like, are we too small to be even doing this setup? Because it is designed for, obviously, all sizes of businesses, but there’s that, oh, are we just, you know, a business from little old New Plymouth as well?

Tom: Yeah, I know exactly what you mean, where it’s like, and then you go, why can’t I use this, though?

Jacqueline: Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

Tom: Like, it’s almost like… We should be as professional as any large business, but I have the benefit of being small and tightly held, where we know everyone.

Jacqueline: Yeah, it’s almost like imposter syndrome creeps in, eh? You’re like, what, why? No, we can do this, yeah.

Tom: Yeah, so the motivation comes in waves, though, doesn’t it?

Jacqueline: Yes, it does. So it’s definitely flow. I think flow is the key word. It’s ebbs and flows, knowing when it’s time to push, knowing when it’s time to run. You’ve got to push the team: we’re doing this, and this is where we’re going right now. And then knowing when we need to reset, and then knowing when the team just needs to rest, and we just need to get through, and then going at it again. It’s definitely a rollercoaster ride, which is kind of what entrepreneurship is, right? You can’t go hard and fast forever.

Tom: Well, again, it goes back to the seasons. You can’t have a perpetual summer.

Jacqueline: No, exactly. Otherwise everything would dry, you’d dry out, you’d burn out, and you’d just literally die, metaphorically.

Tom: Totally, totally. Be dead on the ground because you’re exhausted. Yeah, and I was going to ask, like, this is something that I’ve just looked at and felt for a while, but I’ve just started to change, is my year starts now. I’ve realigned it to start as we hit winter. It’s like the new year begins, almost aligned with Matariki.

Jacqueline: I was feeling exactly the same over Matariki.

Tom: Because I was like, it makes no sense for all of a sudden, in December, to go, I’ve got to get all these new goals, when I’m already rushing it.

Jacqueline: Burning it. So Christmas is that push and that rush, eh? Like, we feel it almost in November with clients. They’ve got almost this to-do list, and they’re like, eek, I’ve got 35 days. So now I want boom, boom, boom, boom. And we’re like, okay, we can implement that. But then Christmas hits and they almost vanish and disappear for three weeks. And we’re like, oh, we’ve done all this stuff. You’ve almost, the traction, all this energy. And then it’s like radio silence. You’re like, okay, we’ll wait till… see you in January.

Tom: Isn’t it funny? All that pressure. And then they’re gone.

Jacqueline: It’s like, oh, I could have just done it while you’re away. It is, the calendar year, we definitely have had lots of discussion over when. Do we roll over on the financial year? Or do you roll over, as you say, Matariki? Or is it when you come back in January? I think that’s also perhaps shifting right now as well.

Tom: Yeah. I think, well, we’ve seen it almost out there, of how well Matariki’s been uptaken, and everyone seems to deeply connect and resonate with it. It’s really getting us to connect with ourselves, and with what’s going on in our environment. So I think, why can’t business also be part of that ecosystem? And reset into that ecosystem. So I was just curious if you’re starting to move that way as well.

Jacqueline: We are. We’ve started to shift, but it’s definitely, I think, it’s also hard because you’re also juggling that client base as well, you know?

Tom: Yeah. Because I guess, is this a busy-ish time for you? Like, you’re starting to do a lot of planning, or you’re revving up, or is it just perpetual? Like, it’s always going?

Jacqueline: No, I think there are definitely those ebbs and flows. I think after the financial year, people are starting to ramp up. But that doesn’t happen on the 31st of March, you know, because it might for some, because they’ve got budget and spend they need to clean out.

Tom: Yeah, to clean and burn.

Jacqueline: But then it takes a couple of months after that, because then people have looked at their figures, and have done their numbers, and are sort of allocating expenditure to certain categories. So it’s definitely kicking in now. And then I think you have those businesses that are hyping up for Christmas, you know?

Tom: Yeah. When you’re looking at the landscape, what are you seeing the needs for businesses in this area? Like, well, where do you see the holes?

Jacqueline: Oh, the holes. It’s about, probably from my perspective and what I hear from the team, it’s about basically how you can be found right now. How can you show up when AI is coming into the market and having a very strong hold, and that change? Can your business actually be found?

Tom: How do you check that?

Jacqueline: Yeah, that’s a great question. And it’s definitely one for my husband to give you an accurate answer there.

Tom: Has he put that out? Because I know he puts out…

Jacqueline: Yeah, so he actually puts things out. So Daring Growth Seekers, we have a podcast.

Tom: Yeah, probably a good time.

Jacqueline: And very informative on there. And we’re actually creating a Daring Growth Seekers community from there, which you can become a member and join. So it’s essentially a space for business owners to come together, to be able to… they have weekly information updates, so you can get all sort of the latest info on what’s happening on the AI world and in the marketing strategy space, and also attend workshops as well.

Tom: Nice. And those are online, or some in person as well?

Jacqueline: Yep, definitely. So we have some down at our offices, just down the road. So we have those workshops monthly. There will be a new round of dates coming out soon. And then we also have the online community.

Tom: And then, I guess, other goals for the business, or looking forward to? You’ve said helping that many people. But maybe bring it a little bit closer.

Jacqueline: Maybe bringing it a little bit closer. I think it’s just to give this push of bringing community back together. There’s some great things happening out there in the space. I think it’d be nice to sort of lean into that. Maybe a personal goal might be to get a little travel trip in there somewhere along the way.

Tom: Do you have anything?

Jacqueline: Is that being selfish?

Tom: No. Do you have anything booked?

Jacqueline: No. Nothing booked. You’re really giving me inspiration here, knowing that you’re flying out.

Tom: Yeah. We take off and, oh, jeepers, I can now say next month. Time flies by. But even talking to someone today that’s going to the UK in September, I just find September in Taranaki is like a tricky month to just navigate.

Jacqueline: Slightly jealous. It’s that rain season, right?

Tom: Yeah. It’s the wind. It gets nicer, but the wind, sort of, and the rain.

Jacqueline: Oh, the wind just ruins everything. It whips through.

Tom: Fresh days like today. It’s probably a good time to be looking at your business, isn’t it?

Jacqueline: I think it’s able to give you that space, say, to have, like, take the glasses off and look through it in another lens, and just get that clear perspective. And like, there’s always things that pop up when you’re travelling.

Tom: Another question for you is, like, whose responsibility is it to look at this, you know, this marketing piece of your business? Like, whose is it? Who, you know? Whose responsibility is it? Because everything seems to fall on the owner.

Jacqueline: It does fall on the owner, but I think that’s part of it. It’s part of entrepreneurship, right? You’ve got to have your hands on many levers, and sort of know which ones to pull, or which ones to activate at the right time. But I think also, perhaps, embedding our EOS system has definitely made those seats and roles very clear, because sometimes they can be quite confusing, and you think somebody’s over it, but they’re not. And, you know, are we showing up on socials three times a week, or are we doing this? And you’re like, yeah, yeah, that’s happening. But then when you actually look back, you’re like, oh, well.

Tom: Yeah, having responsibility.

Jacqueline: Yeah.

Tom: And it’s like, yeah, I agree. That was a bit of a…

Jacqueline: To be like, we’re present.

Tom: Yeah. It was a loaded question, really, because it’s like, as the owner, you’re definitely responsible for the strategy, and you’re responsible for however you like to run your business, and what departments or whatever. But it’s like, there’s a real distinction. Responsibility and doing are two different things.

Jacqueline: Totally.

Tom: So it’s like, the responsibility definitely can be allocated and made clear. But the doing, that’s why there are, you know, businesses like yours, like Done By Nine, that can help, because, like I said, operationally, most business owners are fantastic.

Jacqueline: Yes.

Tom: But it’s like the sales and marketing piece, which is often as important, if not more important, is completely overlooked.

Jacqueline: Well, it’s time consuming. It’s then also getting there, and actually knowing, okay, so how are we going to do this? And then it’s like the, what was the why? Like, how are we going to get this done out there? And yeah, it’s something that can be, I’ll get to this soon. I’ll get to this soon.

Tom: Yeah. And you can measure it, can’t you? To get an ROI on your investment.

Jacqueline: Like, yeah, you can definitely measure your spends on Facebook and Meta ads, and what the ROI is. And so that’s essentially, you know, not my wheelhouse, but what the team do. And then it falls along with other elements, like your design and your website. It’s kind of having them all linked and talking to each other, because there’s no point. You’re only as strong as your weakest team member, right? So they all need to run together and have that cohesive messaging.

Tom: And yeah, I like that. Reading through the website, like, that was abundantly clear. It’s like all their assets working together. And you’re right, it’s like offence and defence, having it all covered. Oh, it’s just slipped out of my head, but it was a really good idea.

Jacqueline: Might have to wait.

Tom: Oh, might have to wait. Might have to wait. So cliffhanger to next time. But no, I appreciate you coming in. And for me, the biggest takeaway was the shifting landscape, and really needing to start to move with and engage, or find the people that can help you navigate that. And that whole thing, if, when people are now starting to search, they’re probably not doing it on Google.

Jacqueline: Yeah.

Tom: Wow.

Jacqueline: Yeah, definitely. Got to keep those eyes open, eh? Keep talking.

Tom: But it’s scary and exciting at the same time, isn’t it?

Jacqueline: I think it is. Yeah, it’s being able to adapt, right? And I think that’s a big part of business itself, and entrepreneurship, is noticing when those changes are arising, and being able to shift your game.

Tom: Nice. So for anyone listening, yeah, Done By Nine and Daring Greatly.

Jacqueline: Daring Growth Seekers.

Tom: Daring Growth Seekers. That’s all good. That sounds like a Brené Brown book. Thank you very much. I’ve really enjoyed this hour. I’m probably going to go away… Bit of a rollercoaster through the business world. And just really committing to them, getting to know and understand your marketing game. Biggest takeaway, I think. Awesome. So everyone, thank you for listening. Have a great week.

Jacqueline: Thank you for having me.

Tom: And we will catch you next week. Bye for now.